The Silence of Our Friends

Sunday, December 03, 2006

FDL Racism/Sexism Round-Up

Once again FireDogLake has caused a completely unnecessary commotion by revealing some of their racist and sexist notions. I guess the best place to start would be background on the first incidents, the Blackface Joe graphic and TRex telling a black/latino woman named Liza Sabater to mind her betters, Jane Hamsher: The Left’s Answer to Ann Coulter? and A Chasm Illuminated. You could spend all day just reading those posts, the comments, and the links with their comments for background! In the comments at Dark Sun, check out what Sunrunner says in the 8th comment down about how dissent is not appreciated and stomped to dust at FDL. This aspect of FDL is noted again and again and again in many of the comments sections of these discussions.

Then there is the anti-Japan, and generally anti-Asian angle. We'll pick that up with the most recent episode: FDL’s TRex is at it again. Sunrunner again does the heavy lifting, pointing out a post at DKos where TRex's xenophobia gets the best of him regarding Japan. There are several other examples at FDL; here, here, here (UPDATE-Originally I had asked people to click the link to TRex's post from within the FDL post, but it appears he has removed his blog. If you want to see the post you have to get it from Google cache.) and here. I know I am missing some links here too, yes, it's A-ok to hate Asians over at FDL and sadly, not many are willing to come to their defense. I assume it has to do with the fact that most Americans are so ignorant about Asian people, cultures, and histories, that it's almost like ridiculing them is like ridiculing fictional or cartoon people. Now that I think of it, much of racism is this way.

Which might explain the combustibility of the sexist charges, after all, women make up roughly 50% of the population. More people feel directly targeted, and many men happen to love those 'targets' and understand and feel the same anger. In this latest episode, Pachacutec describes in minute detail how a female Democratic Representative is a whore. Since the word whore is common currency describing both men and women who sell out their principles, it would have barely raised an eyebrow or two amongst readers. But he didn't leave it there, the detail suggests that she is a literal prostitute selling her sexual services. Nearly similtaneously, TRex calls a female conservative pundit a cunt. She definitely is a nasty piece of work, but that has nothing to do with her gender.

I won't go into the fine points of my thoughts on this since the myriad of links cover so much. So onto the links:

Anti-Feminism on the Left III, this is part three in a series. Tom Watson advises bloggers and activists on the left to rein in their sexist impulses, as well as the inflammatory language, and happens to use these examples to illustrate. Then all hell breaks loose.

Once Is An Accident, Twice Is Coincidence, Three Times Is Enemy Action, where I first became aware of the brouhaha because I avoid FDL since the "mind your betters" chapter; but I love Progressive Gold!

I knew Kai would have a thought or two and he picks this up in his Thursday Roundup.

Then Feministe goes on an informative spree with three related posts. Zuzu's Sound Familiar?, Piny's To Review, and Piny's That's One Word For It.

It rates a mention by Wolcott in Bilbo Baggins Beyond the Valley of the Superboobies.

Shakespeare's Sister weighs in with On Cunts.

As does Neddie Jingo in Lefty-Backbiting Brouhaha.

Pinko Punko let's 'er rip with Nobody at Three Bulls. The way I wrote that sounds like shadow boxing LOL, eh, just go read. Then come back and explain cucumbers and emus to me. I must know!

Punkassblog fires one off with Firedoglake eats shit, fucks the dead, and misses the point entirely.

Thersites decides to take a different tack in Weird Weather.

And if that was different, how about this at Ezra's place, On Obscene Sexual Expressions.

For the first time ever, Lance Mannion needs his mouth washed out with soap in Whoring the language.

Echidne gets out the firehose for The Arid Land Of Politically Correct Debate

Bellatrys is not amused and says so in In re the recent FDL defense of sexist language.

This one is Bizarro World, Naughty Words and Pictures. Maha was having a heck of a time trying to explain the sexism to some willfully ignorant characters, while at the same time being willfully ignorant to racism. I'd like to give Elayne Riggs a big sloppy smooch for making the effort to explain, Timewarp, and Ebogjonson too! Maha sticks her fingers in her ears and says, "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" and closes her comments. No matter, Ebogjonson is gonna say what has to be said. For more background on Maha's reaction check here. (Yes, I rewrote this paragraph, updates were too confusing.)

Elayne also covers the dust up in Pressies and check out the great graphic one of her readers made for her birthday. This makes me feel terribly guilty since I haven't been making my blog rounds for the past several weeks and have been playing catch up, but hadn't caught up with Elayne or wished her HAPPY BIRTHDAY ELAYNE!

Amanda reluctantly tells her friend TRex, and his apologists, that he is full of shit in Dogs that won’t hunt (because they’re pussies)

Republic of Dogs does the Roundup To End All Roundups on this one in {the right tools for the job}, maybe I shouldn't say it's JUST a round-up, because there is alot of analysis in this one too.

Apparently FDL has gone too far this time since this one isn't dying down but appears to continue gaining momentum. If true, I'll add more links as I find them (or you find them and tell me in my comments).

UPDATE: HAH! No sooner do I post this and just surfing my links and I find Belledame222 is grinding her axe, In other news, firedoglake has just changed its name to Assberets, Inc.

UPDATE 2: Lindsay Beyerstein opines on Sexual metaphors and profanity. She words this in a way to avoid linking it to the FDL situation, but I found some of the best commentary on that situation in the comments anyway. Here Amanda Marcotte says:
Well, the root cause really does go back to agenda-setting. People really look up to Fire Dog Lake as a blog where they don't have this hostility to "identity politics", but in fact see the big picture here, and the importance of having the liberal resurgence be about economic progressivism AND foreign policy issues that are based in trying to keep peace AND opposition to oppression by race, sex, and sexual orientation. Markos and the Sensible Liberals out there want to see these goals as somehow opposed, but I think that will are fixing to see that they are intermixed.

And Nancy Pelosi's rise to Speaker is going to be huge for us peddlers in mere identity politics. Sensible Liberals are always seeking what goal they have to compromise on to get another, and while they were debating---do you give in on the war? do you give in on women's rights?---a woman rose to the 3rd most powerful position in the country, and controls the agenda of DC now and guess what? She was against the war from the beginning and a supporter of women's rights. Compromising your principles to get things done turns out to be the exception, not the rule.

And now we're seeing the damage that the widespread tolerance of sexist slurring is going to do to the Democrats because this whole arsenal of attacks against Pelosi will be handed out in the mainstream media that wouldn't be there if sexist language was as shameful as racist language. And it's going to hurt the people who were against the war all along, because she's been there with us. If more people would got on board with this antagonism to sexist language that feminists demonstrate, then we could have had a much better chance of minimizing the damage of these attacks. The reason tensions are high right now is the people who mock the "PC police" were often doing so, like Markos, to make us seem inconsequential so people like him get to set more of the agenda. And in doing so, they shot themselves in the foot. I think the whole cloth liberals who think all these issues are important are seeing this happening, seeing that we were right, and getting pushier because of it.

You go girl! This is the point Tom Watson was making in his series. How can we pushback against sexism from the right when we have it on display here on the left? Why shouldn't a rightwing blogger be able to call Pelosi, Hilary Clinton, or any liberal/progressive women they abhor a cunt since it's acceptable for our side to do it? I also like the point she is making about how men like Markos have no problem throwing us (women/POC - identity politics) and our issues under the bus to increase their own influence, and that they are finding out they were wrong to do so.

Then there is an interesting twist at Eli's place where in impromptu reunion of FDL diaspora (tip of the hat to Karen M) took place; Irony-Rich Bloodletting. There are many examples of the autocratic attitude of the frontpagers at FDL there as well as here and here, as well as the comment at Dark Sun (mentioned above) with the bile Jane Hamsher unloaded on some poor commenter named Margaret who had the audacity to mildly criticise Jane.

UPDATE 3: Ebogjonson shows FDL how to punk rock with the dreamlife of potted plants.

44 comment(s):

WOWZERS, Donna, I had no IDEA. You certainly have this documented to the famous fare-the-well. What a pile of research -- really, I'm boggled to learn of it all.

Thank you!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/03/2006 5:45 PM  

Thanks for the lovely wishes, Donna, and for this great post.

By Blogger Elayne, at 12/03/2006 5:48 PM  

Donna, excellent round up! some of these I didn't know about.

You need to fix the mahablog one tho... especially because of the not-to-be-missed hilarity of her closing comments after people pointing out about the blackface thing.

She cannot... absolutely cannot, handle ebogjonson (few can, it seems... once he gets on the scene comments are closed, shields go up, and "la la la, I can't hear you" becomes a crescendo), who picks up and highlights every one of her dismissive racist dog whistles.

Happy Birthday Elayne!

By Blogger Nanette, at 12/03/2006 5:57 PM  

lotus, you're welcome and good to see you here.

I hope you had a wonderful birthday Elayne!

Thanks for the tip Nanette. It's fixed and updated.

By Blogger Donna, at 12/03/2006 7:01 PM  

Woah, Donna! Thank you for doing this, as I was tempted, but too exhausted at the thought, busy as hell lately with real life and all and I do know how much work it is to round up the links and create make sense of them!

Yeah, seconding Maha, ebogjonson himself showed up (and I know I am not the only person in total awe of that guy!) showed up and yup, she shut the comments up so fast there couldn't have been time to say lickety-split.

So, now I am off to read the posts I didn't know about.

And speaking of hilarity, someone googled "jane hamsher margaret sanctimonious bitch" today and ended up at my Jane Hamsher = Ann Coulter post!

And happy happy b-day Elayne! It was such a beautiful day in these parts that I hope you got out into it a little.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/03/2006 7:17 PM  

Donna, it's okay to link to me. Jane already knows about it, and I think this is winding down.

I'm not really getting all that much traffic from it anyway, which is fine by me.

By Blogger Eli, at 12/03/2006 8:14 PM  


Thanks for the link and a fantastic roundup! I've not been here before, but I look forward to reading you in the future. :)

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/03/2006 8:25 PM  

Jeebus... what is with this guy (TRex)? Does he even realize what he is saying?

Orcinus made some very good points today regarding the Lieberman-as-Wigger flap:

A throwaway line in one of the anti-Asian racist FDL links. He (and Hamsher) are very lucky that no one (that I know of) got hold of this self-confessed explanation of what the lieberman blackface was about... although it does very aptly illustrate Kai's point about blackface being the N word in pictorial form.

By Blogger Nanette, at 12/03/2006 8:36 PM  

Dear God, Nanette...that was really something.

Its the sort of thing you read and think just has to be "high jinx" -- until you see it from within the context of a larger pattern.

Veddy Veddy is inner'estin that Lindsey Beyerstein and Amanda Marcotte have weighed in, since both of them have said repeatedly that they "like" TRex. I think Lindsey called him a friend.

I thought this was going to die down and go away on friday, but it seems to be developing a new set of legs every day.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/03/2006 10:07 PM  

Also meant to mention that the Orcinus excerpt to which TRex links to was a major dissapointment back when. I mean the guy has done serious research on and written about hate groups, has written a book on Japanese internment camps, and still has such a massive blind spot.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/03/2006 10:10 PM  

A great roundup, Donna! I've been following this story all over... and was trying to figure out how to map out all of the links.

It would just be a duplication now, though, after what you've done here!

By Blogger Karen M, at 12/03/2006 10:55 PM  

Great job, Donna. It was really enlightening to be able to follow all the links from one post.

I still owe you an email reply; I've been somewhat overwhelmed due to power isses (as in generator, not the usual PoC stuff), and am, as we Mainers say, wicked behind on nearly everything.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/03/2006 11:26 PM  

Donna, thanks for this roundup and for introducing me to several engaging blogs I hadn't previously encountered. One gets the sense that the tables are turning in the progressive "PC" debate. Cool.

By Blogger Kai, at 12/03/2006 11:32 PM  

Karen, I had two people in mind as I was doing this and you are one of them. LOL I had seen you mention a couple times that you wanted to somehow map this out or create an organizational chart and thought, me too!

The other person was Sunrunner, she did such a great job mapping out the blackface Joe and Liza Sabater mess and putting it all together in the Jane Hamsher/Ann Coulter thread.

Sunrunner, I was the one who googled that! I couldn't remember which thread at your place I saw it at, and I was certain it was in the body of the post not the comments, so I couldn't find it at first. I really think it's an instructive example for the attitudes at FDL, authoritarian, do as I say not as I do. Why is it alright for Jane or any of the frontpagers to viciously attack anyone who steps out of line, but not expect the same in return? The blogger sets the tone and behavior for the commenters usually, but over there it's anything goes for Jane and TRex and STFU for anyone not willing to get down and lick their boots.

By Blogger Donna, at 12/03/2006 11:36 PM  

mb, take your time, I can wait. As you can see from my own blog I don't keep to any sort of regular schedule myself. Which might be a problem if I guest post for Wampum, but I will make a special effort for you if you want me to fill in especially during the Koufax crunch. I am sending good thoughts your way and hoping your issues with the generator will soon be solved.

Kai, I was thinking that I should have also given you alot of credit for some of the huge posts you have done on these issues. Always well thought out and you explain it so that anyone can understand even people coming to the table without any context.

res, I love your blog. You'll probably see more of me there than I will see of you here, since I am terrible about updating. I'll never be an A-lister LOL!

By Blogger Donna, at 12/03/2006 11:45 PM  

Thanks for the link, Donna. Personally, I no longer get involved every time Jane or one of her flying monkeys steps over the line and does something stupid. It has to personally involve me before I get personally involved.

And Jane doesn't want me doing that. So if she knows what's good for her, misogynistic asshats like her and TRex had better keep on ignoring me.

I will say, however, that when a reader sent me a link to Jane's "airing out" post came out a few nights ago, I couldn't resist but go there and leave a comment.

Of course, the woman who'd just written in that post that she'd never once ever tried to inhibit free expression at FDL wouldn;t allow my comment to be posted on account of my getting banned frm there las January over something I'd said about her in my blog.

I care about as much for Jane Hamsher and her worthless site as I do about Jack Abramoff's pocket lint that Tom DeLay farts out of his keister.

By Blogger jurassicpork, at 12/04/2006 12:02 AM  

i do not read that FDL thing.I keep finding out how good this is.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/04/2006 12:07 AM  

Donna, you are relentless!

You know, I would normally never take satisfaction at the comeuppance of another but boy, FDL deserves this and more. They've treated their commenters like garbage, abused their *power*, trashed all the goodwill they had, with their craven dishonesty and ego-driven ambition.

I don't want myself, as a progressive, to be associated in any way with their rudeness, disengenuousness and obnoxious attitude. They don't speak for me and if they get any more powerful without getting a clue in the process then we will be associated with them by proxy. This cannot stand.

It isn't about the c-word or even the reckless and rerehensible use of the hideous blackface, and never was for me. This is about trying to repress ideas and free-thought while wearing the *progessive* cloak. Bullies and worse.

They don't speak for me!!!

Thanks, Donna.

By Blogger Jenny from the Blog, at 12/04/2006 12:11 AM  

And also I remember that *Margaret* episode and I'm still furious I logged off that day in disgust instead of speaking out.

By Blogger Jenny from the Blog, at 12/04/2006 12:13 AM  

Heh... that Margaret thing happened just when I was checking out that blog, with a thought to maybe reading it from time to time... I was appalled and very quickly decided that that was *not* the place for me.

Excellent update, the Amanda thing. She's more comfortable on this footing and has put it very well indeed, what the issues with this stuff are.

sunrunner, I hadn't even read the linked stuff at Orcinus... very disappointing, for sure. So was Digby's comment in the FDL thread. I know these people probably feel they have to defend "their friends" from attack (in the Orcinus case, from the right wing) but the rhetorical contortions they have to go through to do it just winds up diminishes them in the eyes of others, sadly.

By Blogger Nanette, at 12/04/2006 12:37 AM  

One gets the sense that the tables are turning in the progressive "PC" debate.

Kai, funny I just left a comment on the republic of dogs blog, saying something like this. Well, that one good thing that seems to be coming out of all this is that more and more people are seeming to be willing to "reclaim" the PC label and turn the tables with it. Or something like that... I didn't make much sense over there either, lol.

By Blogger Nanette, at 12/04/2006 12:40 AM  

Also (to add to the list) ebogjonson weighs in on the maha thing.

By Blogger Nanette, at 12/04/2006 1:04 AM  

JP and Jenny, I think it is very important to disclose this dark side of FDL. I am getting weary of having to explain after each individual incident that there is a history. Take any single event and most people could excuse FDL. It's the pattern that is the issue and it's disturbing to say the least. The weird part is that no one at FDL has ever once personally treated me disrespectfully or badly in any way. I've only witnessed it on numerous occassions regarding other people.

I'm not a religious person but I do believe in redemption. I think that if people are made aware of their faults they can change for the better. I also think that some people are very resistant to this. I'm hoping in all of this that Jane will find a greater awareness of how badly she has been treating people and that TRex is completely out of control. I'd like to find out that six months down the road there have been no more racist or sexist outburst, or no more vitriol spewed at commenters who challenge her ideas or that of the other front pagers, no more groupthink. It would be great if Jane made whatever changes necessary to see that this happens.

Do I honestly care about FDL and it's survival? Not the way it is now. I suppose my last paragraph is that of a "concern troll". Not really, what I am saying is that if they continue on the path they are on, I hope they go down in flames rather quickly. But that if they become truly progressive I wish them the best of luck and I'd probably be lured back and would happily lure others back; because there is alot of good writing there, there is alot of good work being done, and there is alot of good people who have come and gone and will come and go in the future. They are ruining the good thing they have now, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Nanette, it is hard sometimes to tell a friend that they are screwing up or to even see it yourself if you don't want to. I think that the evidence is mounting so that it can't be denied or ignored unless you are willfully blind. That is what is happening here. FDL and TRex especially refuse to hear it from the peanut gallery, so I am glad it is coming from their friends and the so called "celebrities" like Wolcott. Hopefully it makes a difference.

By Blogger Donna, at 12/04/2006 1:31 AM  

Got it, thanks Nanette!

By Blogger Donna, at 12/04/2006 1:50 AM  

Had to do it Donna...I linked you over at my place. I haven't written on this, except to post a few links to all the best places that have and comment there. Thanks for taking the time and energy to do this. I can't remember all the places I've been in the bloggity-bog reading about the fiasco, but a number of gems out there have opened up world of excellent debate. I am most pleased to see women taking the lead as I think our voices have been more or less limited. Thanks again for the flashlight out of the darkness.

By Blogger HopeSpringsATurtle, at 12/04/2006 3:18 AM  

aw geez..a link would be nice huh?

Deep Confusion

By Blogger HopeSpringsATurtle, at 12/04/2006 3:44 AM  

Oh, that was you, Donna! I gotta tell you that I got a huge belly laugh out of it. Here is the link to the "Margaret" exchange (I am hoping she comes across this somehow, to see that there are plenty of people who were horrified at the unjustified vitriol on Jane's part).

And I was hoping ebogjonson would comment on Maha's commnet in response to his comment, and he did not dissapoint!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/04/2006 8:40 AM  

Oooopsie! I didn't mean to link to the entire FDL comment thread, rather to a comments at my blog where I pulled out the particular comments between Jane and Margaret and reposted them their (saves having to wade through FDL).

Although, the entire thread at FDL is illuminating, never-the-less.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/04/2006 10:38 AM  

Thanks for the RoD linky love, Donna. Emus and cucumbers, huh? Emu is simply a flightless bird. Cucumber? Pinko tried explaining it over e-mail and granted we were discussing like 200 other things and well it made no sense. So I decided a cumcumber was bland, opaque nonsense.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/04/2006 11:34 AM  

Sunrunner, I'm glad you pulled that thread because there is so much irony in it. Almost all the sneering they do at Cox could apply to them.

Jane says Of AMC - "treat people like lepers without whom you wouldn’t be where you are today"

TeddySanFran - "If there was ever an example of “I’ve got mine, shut the castle gate to keep out those dirty bloggers,” W’ette is it. Her transparent transition to the MSM (!!) is ludicrous."

Not perfectly applicable there, but the attitude is similar with her and TRex viewing themselves as the aristocracy and the rest as rabble; like a 'self-fashioned Marie Antoinette'.

puppethead - "The problem with her isn’t how vapid she is, it’s that she writes for Time under the pretense of being part of the liberal blogosphere. Whenever a blogger ethics panel is formed by the ethically-challenged corporate media they use her as the liberal representative."

I wouldn't call Jane vapid, more like obnoxious, but I know I don't want her being a liberal representative because of that obnoxiousness.

lisa - "Ana Marie Cox is a hypocritical social climber who will get her comeuppance sooner rather than later. In the meantime, we can look forward to her Caitlin Flannagan-like disappointment in how she’s being treated by the lefty blogosophere she used to consider her home."

I hope this prediction is true for all the social climbers in the lefty blogosphere.

In - "She’s always going to be upset, then, anytime the attention is diverted from her."

I'd like to ask mb to comment on that one. *snort*

And remember Jane saying that the commenters keep her in line to Keith Olbermann, maybe not so much...

TeddySanFran - "I really wish people would stop acting as if readers get any input about what our blogmistresses blog. If a topic doesn’t interest you, you’ll know immediately from the picture and the headline — and you’ve got a mouse that clicks, right? These continuing editorial “recommendations” are a pain in the ass (sorry if that’s a W’ette trademarked phrase).

More, please, Jane, of whatever you’re serving. And, “I’ll have what Jane’s having” is the best attitude, folks."

*ilson - "Plutonium Level Donors ($239/month) get to demand topics from the blogladies here. Anybody else can request politely after searching the site to see if it hasn’t already been covered. The key word is polite."

By Blogger Donna, at 12/04/2006 11:46 AM  

Thanks for the explanation AG, I was wondering if cucumber might have something to do with thin skinned.

By Blogger Donna, at 12/04/2006 11:50 AM  

OMFG, ebogjonson continues to out do his fine self!

The Dreamlife of Potted Plants!!!!!!

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/04/2006 9:14 PM  

>Jane says Of AMC - "treat people like lepers without whom you wouldn’t be where you are today"

TeddySanFran - "If there was ever an example of “I’ve got mine, shut the castle gate to keep out those dirty bloggers,” W’ette is it. Her transparent transition to the MSM (!!) is ludicrous.">

ZOMG. that's so ironic it doesn't even give me schadenfreudische joy, it just give me the creeps. fuck. is NO ONE SAFE???

that said, i do think Hamsher was pretty much a climber from the beginning, though.

i don't read AMC now especially, but the one column i did see that other people were all bitter about, a piece about Katha Pollitt's latest oeuvre--snarky but fair, i thought. shrug. then again, i don't suppose i was expecting her to hold open the castle gate for moi especially.

what does that mean, anyway? do they mean, "addressing issues that we think are important?" or do they mean, "failed to also get -us- jobs at Time?" 'cause...

By Blogger belledame222, at 12/04/2006 11:20 PM  

i thanked AM for that post; credit where it's due.

and yes, ebogjohnson is teh Awesome. seriously, it kills me, all those whiners about how they're not racists, they're just protecting, what, -comedy,- was it, with their tired-ass blackface yadda, and he's funnier and sharper than all of them put together. he should be better known.

By Blogger belledame222, at 12/04/2006 11:23 PM  

re Jane and Margaret: holy CRAP. oh, she's just off her head. and yeah, the sheer w00t catFIGHT! we WUV you, ___ and we HATES the other one, we HATES them forever! thing is just too damn depressing. gah. politics as football game.

By Blogger belledame222, at 12/04/2006 11:30 PM  

Amazing. Great post, well written. I am just blown away. My 2 cents (which may not matter to anyone but myself).
I really believe there is no reason to use gender/race insults. As a member of a minority, it is easy to see where I am coming from.
BTW long time lurker at Atrios and Kos came here via Eli.

By Blogger karmic, at 12/05/2006 8:22 AM  

jay gives good lurk.

(I suppose that makes him good-lurking)

By Blogger Eli, at 12/05/2006 2:35 PM  

Thanks for dropping by Sanjay. Unfortunately I only have bursts of action here and most of the time there's nothin' new. I'm a better commenter than blogger. LOL

By Blogger Donna, at 12/06/2006 7:31 PM  

Ebogjonson flings a diamond into the void at Tom Watson's place:

as luck would have it, I recently read an essay that sheds some light on all this "I'm PUNK" crap. (Apologies for typos, but I had to type it in from a hard copy. The actual magazine can be bought here.)

This is music critic Diedrich Diederichsen on some politics at work in the "raw artlessness of punk:"

Then, however, a musical question became relevant: how should or could this ostensible artlessness develop without sacrificing itself? Every single form of artlessness was thus forced to explain to itself, so to speak, what its original goals actually had been. TO persist in raucus brawling? TO liquidate historically outmoded forms? Or generally, to make a particular type of music impossible, in an abstract as well as practical, broader sense?


Additionally, there was also another problem hovering the background that had not been addressed much. The punk rebellion’s decidedly anti-historic gesture of “lets start all over,” as well as the movement’s rejection of the blues history of rock, naturally led in some places to the development of a latent, racist dimension, primarily in New York punk. Generally speaking, in the history of punk, too, we encounter a classic problem: the fact that negating a direct opponent (instead of finding a newer, better form or synthesis) can always aid and abet an even greater evil. While in Great Britain, another African-rooted diaspora gained influence over rock music – via reggae produced by the youth culture of second-generation Afro-Caribbean immigrants – in the U.S.A., a long history of aggressive, reduced rock music began. This music represents all kind of male losers and disenfranchised groups, right down to the “libertarian” right wing, the predecessors of today’s militias. From Glenn Danzig to Type O Negative.

I think you can fairly easily substitute "sexist" for "racist" above, although we all know our ROCKING friends over at FDL can play that particular tune too. From Type O Negative back to Firedoglake?

Posted by: ebogjonson | Dec 4, 2006 10:14:56 PM

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12/06/2006 7:47 PM  

op99, thanks for the heads up on ebogjonson's throwaway comment! Seems like everything the guy produces sparkles.

Donna, well you may not post all that frequently but threads as meaty as this should only be ingested about once per quarter. ;-) You know, I feel like you and I (and Nanette, among others) have been slugging away on this matter for as long as I can remember. Seems like some of our arguments are finally seeping into common discourse. Nice job.


By Blogger Kai, at 12/07/2006 10:36 AM  

I certainly hope so Kai. I've seen that sometimes people get annoyed with comparing oppression between women and black people or other POC. But I think it is because they don't want us fighting amongst each other, one-upmanship in other words. I don't see it that way, I think they must be compared because they are related and sometimes if a person understands one type of oppression but doesn't quite understand the other the use of comparison can make it easier to see. That's why I asked of the Clinton lunch bloggers if they would have been so dismissive if it was a room of all men and women had been excluded. You'll notice maha never answered that, she clearly understands feminism but racial issues are mere identity politics. She's one of the few it might be impossible to get through to, but I bet most of her readers understood where I was going with that.

As always it is good to see your "font" around here!

By Blogger Donna, at 12/07/2006 11:13 PM  

That Ebogjohnson comment is so good my face hurts

By Blogger Blackamazon, at 12/08/2006 8:29 AM  

oh lord not again. i had no idea this was going down.


i really don't get why that woman and her blog are still revered in the blogosphere ... but if there is one thing money can buy is attention and she has the money and the backing.

on another note : donna, sunrunner, kai (and everybody else i don't have an email for), can you all drop me a line at nyc.blogdiva [ at ] gmail [ dot ] com


By Blogger liza, at 12/10/2006 12:43 PM  


Excellent round up! I stumbled upon this place, and I'll certainly be back.

(Nice to see a blogger from my home state, too!!!)


Craig Hickman

By Blogger Craig Hickman, at 12/14/2006 5:19 PM  

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