The Silence of Our Friends

23 comment(s):

I'm on patrol, too. I dunno about Corrente, but I know Jesus General's site is a cesspit. I'm so pissed off already about the comment someone made about it being "too long" and someone else not even reading it.

Yea, thanks for taking the time to write a comment letting us know you don't have time to read an article. Idiot.

I'm probably not in a good mental state at the moment to be doing this, but until some other white person steps up, I will. Let them hate me, I don't care. They hate what I am anyway as they've proven on countless occasions. I'm nothing but a joke to them. I'm what they call Ann Coulter when they're really mad at her. Because I'm that disgusting and awful and should be tortured and murdered for daring to exist. So, screw them. I've got nothing to lose. They have blood on their hands and I'm going to point out ever molecule when they wave their hands around protesting how kind and decent and fair and what bloody good people they are.

By  Anonymous, at 5/06/2007 7:23 PM  

oh my god, Donna. thanks. I've been busy all day and just now getting a chance to read...I think I know what I'm going to be doing the rest of the night.

bless Nez, is all I've got to say.

By  Hahni, at 5/06/2007 7:39 PM  

Welcome back, Donna!

Nez's post rocks big time. Okay I'll go see if there's any ass-whupping that needs to be done out there...

Cheers.

By  Kai, at 5/06/2007 9:39 PM  

Dead Inside is on it already Kai!

DI, I loved your comments over at JG!

Kactus, I know, I want to keep reading it over and over because there is so much to think about in that essay. I really do feel like it's a gift.

By  Donna, at 5/06/2007 10:05 PM  

dead inside: i love you for daring to exist!

seriously, i feel you when you say "i've got nothing to lose." you know? live as if everyone's watching but nobody's judging. and even when they are: keep living!

thank you my friends. it's just another chapter in a book we're all writing as i see it.

By  Anonymous, at 5/06/2007 10:50 PM  

Hi Donna:

It was a great post. Between Verizon and haloscan I have a very hard time reading comments never mind adding to them.

Dead Inside:

I'm not sure what you mean about the JG site being a cesspit. Some of the commenters on Nez's most recent post are not folks who I see commenting over there a lot. I'm not interested in getting into an argument about Patriotboy's cred, he invites Nez to post, Nez posts great stuff and gets pretty much the reaction that he gets. That a lot of people are blind to their own prejudice is not news.

Every single day I work at being a better person, every day I fail in some regard, every single day I work at being a better person.

So, Nez:

Was that what you were doing on Cinco De Mayo (the St. Patrick's Day that Mexican Americans would probably be perfectly happy to celebrate without all of the Anglo Cerveza brewers' hoopla)?

Democommie

By  Anonymous, at 5/07/2007 10:33 PM  

Democommie, i will let DI speak for herself if needed, but first, i think it is not JG's "site" being called a "cesspit" but the level of discourse and insight in the threads at some times. of course its an opinion, but its valid.

you may have to forgive some shorthand speak around here, we know what we mean, forget non-regulars come 'round here, too. I think all that is meant is that those you are calling 'not regulars' (who in all probability are just drawn out by things that bother them in these instances) are spewing some ignorant shit. it can feel like a "cesspit" when these people just let it all pour out. i dont mean to be presumptive, maybe that is not what was meant. but i know it wasnt meant to knock JG site overall. we just dont generally let things disintegrate and get so ugly in these smaller blogs where sensitive work is being done, felt, thought. so it may feel unusual to some of us who don't frequent bigger blogs where this "blindness" to prejudice you mention reigns in streaks.

either way, i'd offer that JC "cred" is of no issue here. dont worry bout that. there's no argument to be had. i love his stuff, and if i didn't respect him, i wouldn't post there. but you'll find that in the "brown blogosphere" the usual stars dont get automatic deference. its a different circle is all. and if DI wanted to slam his site for valid reasons, I dont think anyone's gonna stop that from happening. these are safe places from the mainstream pressures of toeing lines like that.

but again, it wasnt the "Site" i dont think under fire. just those threads where it gets thick. make room for a different experience. DI goes through a process, as we all do, and has reasons to be, probably, sensitive to some of the thinking that springs up in the wake of the reactions i get over there. don't sweat it, dont bother trying to control it, just let it all happen. their reactions, DI's words. all of it. it will work out. JC aint worried about getting some stuff spoken about his threads, i dont think. and i for one think DI should have room to put down those typists, if they have the right to be ignorant. that's my take on it, anyway.

as far as cinco de mayo, i had a good time. me and my mexican imported pistos. was what? writing the post? nah. i wrote it sunday morning, the day i posted it. yesterday.

let's keep doing that work, my friend.

By  nezua, at 5/07/2007 11:32 PM  

Donna, damn I just checked out JG and found that there was simply no need for me chip in, you already handled the whole bunch of em! You were like Jet Li in there, throwing spinning kick combinations that sent people flying in all directions! Nicely done. Now you just need to strike a pose as the music swells and your robes flutter in the wind.

Cheers.

By  Kai, at 5/08/2007 12:01 AM  

::draws out long swelling note on cello::

::turns on high-powered fan::

By  nezua, at 5/08/2007 1:09 AM  

Morning, Nez:

What you said. I find myself wanting to say things in a much more pointed way, at times, over at JG. When replying to complete knucklehead trolls, I'm afraid my response is to be sarcastic and repellent (love is hard to find, for those folks), but when dealing with people who are trying to back the 18 wheeler of their logic up a downramp off of "The 5", I am less sure of how to deal with it. I don't mean re: dead inside's comments but, rather, those of some other people.

I have, on occassion said something to Patriotboy and a few others about the flaming but, in general, I think censorship of any sort is just a bad idea (except in the case of personal attacks or threats against a person).

Here's the real deal. For me to know my feelings (after a lot of years of denying them) is one thing, to know anyone else's is a whole different order of things.

You are right; let's just keep up the good work.

democommie

By  Anonymous, at 5/08/2007 7:52 AM  

good stuff, demo. l learn the most when i hear people honestly talking about what they are honestly learning. and i like what you just said there.

as far as censorship, that may work different here too. i dont mean to swoop in and speak for anyone else, and if Donna disagrees, i know she will say so.

but on these blogs if we didn't shut down certain lines of attack, we would be "Teaching" trolls over and over again. Feminist blogs like Pandagon understand this dynamic very well, although they do give the haters a lot of room. i do admire that. but i am not the same. it gets tiring, it hurts too much to constantly engage it. if i stuck with some notion of "free speech for all, even the haters and the vile," my function would be nil. my blog would be dead.

on these blogs we would be spending all our time battling the same hate and racism and sexism and every other ism you can imagine as it comes rolling out in the form of the same old nasty phrases and arguments, and what would we be doing but rehashing the same debunker-busters over and over, nobody would be listening but us, who are regulars and know it already, and the cumulative effect would just be a littering up the place with anger and confusion.

so Free Speech? Censorship?

Purpose. i think it all depends on the blog's purpose and manner of reaching that purpose. sometimes fights are good for teaching any who are reading, for clarifying positions, for practicing arguments. but sometimes, it is just a waste of time.

when i see the Same Ole Same Ole making its way down the pike, and the rusted tip is aimed toward the heart of a learning process, usually i junk the comment (at least speaking for my blog, can't speak for donna). i consider my ire valuable, i won't squander it on just anyone. and i won't squander my peace of mind once i know that nobody is there to learn or truly have open dialogue. for what is free speech in a blog? other factors must be used, other frames. what falls in line with helping that purpose is the frame to use. that's my take on it.

but i have battled with the idea myself. thought it out, had to think it out. and for me in my place, if someone is trying to understand, even if they are offering Same Ole lines of thinking (as i once did), i will be earnest and engage them. any comments that serve as a slap get crushed in my gate, and i don't look back.

now that's my answer to the "Free Speech/Censorship" as it applies to my blog and what i think are most brown blogs. i think Angry Black Woman even has a separate page for how the notion of "free speech" doesn't mean someone gets to come into your "house" and put you down, fuck up the carpet, etc. maybe it's her. may be someone else's page.

but as far as how it applies to JG's threads...i can't say. he has a different agenda, method, and readership. our ways of handling commenters are different, each according to his own purpose and style and method and philosophy. i know most bigger blogs give much more room for people to say whatever, and i appreciate them falling on that side of the "Editing" line. i know the great bulk of their readers would, too.

By  nezua, at 5/08/2007 11:09 AM  

The title to my post might make it seem like I'm just being funny, but Nezua's post meant alot to me. I think it is important reading for anyone. That's why I decided, I will not let anyone spoil it, dammit! I won't let the assholes derail the thread anywhere with their nonsense.

The way I see it, anyone who writes a post that long has poured his mind, heart, and soul into it. That's why those wiseass comments about it being too long, pissed me off like they did you too, DI. I just don't dismiss or make fun of someone when they have laid a part of themselves out like that, even if I disagree with what they said. If you can't be bothered to read, or you don't have anything intelligent to add, then keep your damn fingers off the keyboard, bubba.

By the way, DI, I love seeing your comments around. Just because someone else puts you down or tells you that you don't matter doesn't make it true. You matter to alot of us.

You know what I thought about DI's comments about JG being a cesspit? It's what I think about commenters at all the funniest liberal sites, not just JG, but also Sadly, No!, World O' Crap, and TBogg; there are some who take it far too literally. They are juvenile. I know that on some of the "Ask Nezua" columns, Nez plays into stereotypes as a way to make fun of racists. It's so ridiculous and over the top that we us catch the joke, but these ones wouldn't, they would think that, "Yeah! Lazy Mexicans are funny! Huh huh huh huh *snort*", instead of getting that the people who think Mexicans are lazy are the real butt of the joke.

On the Jolie thread I think it's more like some people are stuck in a certain way of thinking that it is nearly impossible for them to get the joke, American Exceptionalism, capitalism, colonialist expansion, these are all good things in their minds. Those ones make it a cesspit because their minds are firmly shut, you can't engage them because you are WRONG *hands covering ears* nah nah nah nah, I can't hear you! You're WRONG! etc.

By  Donna, at 5/08/2007 11:43 AM  

::draws out long swelling note on cello::

::turns on high-powered fan::

::Donna goes rolling down the street like a tumbleweed::

LOL

By  Donna, at 5/08/2007 11:54 AM  

I haven't had to bother with a comments policy yet. I sometimes get someone showing up dropping a racist bomb, those I just delete, since I know they won't be back anyway. I've been very lucky that I haven't had the stalkerish type racists come by like alot of WOC bloggers, I get the hit and run ones.

The funny thing is, I do have comments in here that are racist, or at least confrontational in what probably isn't a productive way, and I've left them alone. They are a waste of my energy since alot of my posts I'm not highly invested in, I'm throwing out ideas to see what everyone else thinks, but I figure if someone else wants to try to knock some sense into 'em, have at it.

I'd really rather not step in if there is any possibility that something good can come of it, so I'm not big on censorship even in "my own house" just yet. We'll see if I get some of those persistent throwbacks to the dark ages if I change my mind.

By  Donna, at 5/08/2007 12:04 PM  

Thanks for the link, Donna.

I think you're right about the commenters at JG, though. I skimmed a couple of other threads before wading into this one, and it seems like a lot of them don't really think too deeply about what they're saying before they say it.

By  Anonymous, at 5/08/2007 7:17 PM  

Thank you for explaining what I meant and the shorthand. Yes, that's right. Though, personally, I don't care for the site itself either, but for different reasons. It's just not my thing. The comments have always been what has been most severely problematic for me. Lots of jokes about Ann Coulter being a man just happens to hit me in the gut rather fiercely and there was a lot of that when I used to read there. That may have changed from a long time ago, but the pain lingers.

The current set of comments in the best blog post ever (which owes much of its greatness to other blogs posts, such as the one on this very site, making them greater than the sum of their already fantastic selves) has me in such a state that I cannot even read them, let alone reply, without severely harming myself. I'm grateful for your comments there, as I'm grateful for all the other people with the strength to stand up to those bullies. I can't thank you enough for having the strength and clear-headedness to do so with such fierceness and elegance.

By  Anonymous, at 5/08/2007 7:58 PM  

Thanks DI, I can't tell you how relieved I am that Vox has taken over now though. I was getting worn out going round and round over there.

Liberalrob is backpedaling, which itself is a bit amusing, but what he is saying is that we should be teaching ign'nt white folks. For crying out loud that is what the entire post is! And going from A-list blog to A-list blog to do this? Impossible, you wouldn't have time to do anything else and you'd be fighting against a tide of liberalrob's telling you that you're full of shit anyway. And our attitude is the problem, but if you are kind, gentle, and understanding they steamroll right over you. So you have to get all in their face to make an impression. Like Stella said, damned if you do, damned if you don't; she just didn't understand at the time that it goes both ways.

By  Donna, at 5/08/2007 8:40 PM  

Seriously, Donna, this is what always happens!

POC: You guys aren't talking about [issue]
WL: Okay, tell us what to talk about.
POC: ... [Issue].
WL: Okay, okay, tell us what to talk about.
POC: ... *headdesk*

And then you get the person jumping in with, "Oh, but this doesn't apply because [some excuse I made up so I don't seem racist]."

You could make Mad Libs out of this stuff, and they still wouldn't get it. Heck, someone on LJ made up a White Liberal Bingo card and people still don't get it.

By  Anonymous, at 5/08/2007 9:46 PM  

Hey, Donna, glad you're posting and thanks for the wonderful link roundup.

Something weird, though. I can't find the discussion you are talking about. When I hit the link to Jesus' General, I see only 6 comments and nothing by "liberalrob". Is there a secret code to get into the discussino area?

By  Ravenmn, at 5/09/2007 11:48 PM  

Donna (and others),

I appreciate that you appreciate the comments I've made in places. Thank you for your support. Here is my problem, though. I shouldn't need that because it's not about me and because my hands may be the bloodiest of them all. I'm just as guilty of all the crimes of other white progressives.

You know how white people talk about all their people of color friends who agree with them when they make some stupid statement? I have a condition kinda like that except it's the long list of ex-friends who are people of color who I have fucked over in all the standard ways. I cannot keep friends of any race, but I'm particularly heinous with people of color. Do not trust me. Do not love me. Do not support me.

I don't deserve it and I mean that.

And yes, this is written very much out of white guilt, which is just one of my hypocritical facets. I have zero friends of any race at this point, though, so it's not entirely out of white guilt. I hurt people. I am not a good person. I am not worthy of love.

My support is as honest as it can be, but let's not go fooling anyone. Brown Femi Power is right. I am pretty much only here because white people don't want me. If I were given full access to all that great white privilege (and I have had my share of that poisonous nectar and sometimes I vomited it up and sometimes I went back for more anyway) I'd take it, let there be no illusions.

I've fucked up too much to have a few supportive comments earn me so much of what I do not deserve. When the revolution comes, make sure I'm in the batch of people who go up against the wall. I deserve a bullet for what I've done. Or better yet, just take away my meds and let me die a slow miserable screaming death. It's what I deserve.

I guess that all sounds too dramatic, but I hope you can see what I mean, because I'm really not capable of saying what I mean anymore, if I ever was.

I don't mean to tell you how to think about me, I just want to make sure you have the full picture before you make any decisions. I'm sure you're just trying to be supportive, but I don't believe that I deserve it. I think that all our compassion is better given to those who have proven they can actually benefit from it and I'm just not one of them.

Most people in this world die alone, hungry and in pain and that's how I'll go. For me to expect any more is just more entitlement-expectation. I already have it more easy than I deserve.

I'm not writing this for anyone to feel sorry for me because I don't deserve that and I don't have to tell anyone that other than to say that I realize it too.

By  Anonymous, at 5/10/2007 1:01 PM  

Found it, never mind. I've got to upgrade my home computer one of these days!

By  Ravenmn, at 5/10/2007 1:02 PM  

Ravenm,

There is a very small link just above the six comments that are under the post that says, "Report to the General (67)". It's a javascript that opens up a popup window for Haloscan comments. That's where the liberalrob and stella stuff is. I hope that's helpful.

By  Anonymous, at 5/10/2007 1:04 PM  

Vox, I need to see that bingo card!

RavenMN, sorry I missed your comment. I've been all over the place these last few days and in all of that...forgot to check my own darned comments! D'oh! I'm glad you found the link to read the comments at JG.

I was actually surprised that there wasn't more pushback considering the Angelina Jolie thread. I'm wondering if some of it had to do with The General's approval early on in the comments. What was there was tiring and frustrating enough though.

DI, people can change. If you don't like who you have been or are now, don't be like that from now on. For me, I'll judge you on what I know, and I find you to be an interesting person with insightful comments.

I was reading another blog yesterday (I don't remember the blog name, it was new to me) but the person was talking about something similar. They had black friends in college but after awhile felt like they weren't appreciated enough, "but what about me?" and was taking away their energy from the things they needed to work on to deal with her. She said that she believes alot of people are like that, they mean well in the beginning, but take what they want from black people and when they have grown past that move on, it's not a real friendship.

I think alot of POC are used to that, at least if they have lived a few years. We are a novelty and that wears off. The person finds something "better" and moves on.

I hope it won't happen, and can't say that it won't hurt, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is what you are saying and you eventually do move on. It's happened before and it will happen again.

By  Donna, at 5/11/2007 11:11 PM  

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